An interview with Dr. Jennifer Freed

Jennifer Freed, PhD, is a therapist, author, and co-founder of AHA!, a groundbreaking social and emotional intelligence program for teens that has served over 35,000 young people and families in Santa Barbara, California, since its founding in 1999, the year after the Columbine shooting.

A renowned psychological astrologer, she is the bestselling author of Use Your Planets Wisely, a regular contributor to goop.com, and has written 10 books relating to personal growth. She also has spent over 30 years consulting clients and businesses worldwide on psychological and educational topics, served as the clinical director of Pacifica Graduate Institute, and is a national consultant for EMDR (Post Traumatic Growth Therapies).

I wanted to interview her after reading her Substack post entitled “Human Shortage: The Cost of Losing Our Souls to Machines.” ​One comment in particular stood out. She wrote, “talking to a robot, or staring at a machine, simply intensifies the desperate lonely feeling that help is not on the way.  

“These mini soul erasures take their toll over time. …They teach us that the world is a metal, cold, unfriendly place. They teach that we do not need each other and therefore we can become more atrocious to one another.” 

Her comments about the devastating effects of device dependency and the replacement of human interactions with so-called “AI” told me that we shared many of the same social and public health concerns. I am grateful that she made time in her schedule to talk with me.

Dr. Murad: Jennifer, in your essay, “Human Shortage,” you write that “something serious and critical is being lost when robots or machines take over for humans.” Can you elaborate about that?

Dr. Freed: In all my years of working with teenagers, parents, and educators it’s obvious that there’s always been a communication gap. We’re always trying to understand each other better. But since the onset of the digital age, people have much less tactile ability to connect with each other because they’re just largely looking at talking heads. So the physical, sensual part of human connection has really atrophied, and it’s very obvious with the staggering rates of loneliness.

Dr. Murad: I absolutely agree. I’ve been talking about something called Cultural Stress, the stress of modern living, which is totally different from stresses of the past. It’s a phenomenon that includes device-dependency, delivery of goods and services, the 24-hour news cycle delivered directly to our phones and computers, social media, and a lot more. The net result is that today there’s much less in-person human interaction.

For example, I ask people at work, how many hours a day are you on your computer? The average is 14 hours a day. So, 14 hours a day, it’s just you and this machine working together. The effects of that are enormous because you’re not just suffering from isolation and loneliness, you’re also sitting, not moving, so you have the health effects of that, such as obesity. Having everything delivered instead of going out to get what you need encourages more sitting and more obesity and more diseases such as diabetes and hypertension.

Dr. Freed: Yes. In the animal kingdom, if an animal ever sits it’s a sign that they’re dying or that they can be easily attacked. It’s not natural for our human form to be sitting either. It’s the least healthy position for our body.

I also know that the computer as a machine dilutes and deletes our natural physical vitality. So the Cultural Stress you’re talking about is not just the disassociation the computer creates because we’re not really with each other. But in addition, on a physical, mental, spiritual, emotional level, the machine is sucking the vitality out of us. Our relationship with the machine is not additive; it’s subtractive in terms of our human vitality.

Also, the culture has shifted from “we use devices” to our devices actually have us hostage. But I also think that people like you and me can talk about how to mitigate these effects and create a different set of values so that we get back to using the digital world for its benefits, not its harms.

For example, one of the axioms I follow is that people who move the most are the happiest. It’s a pretty simple equation. The body is this gorgeous vehicle that we’ve been given that houses our spirit and our intelligence and our capacities. From the day it’s born it’s meant to move. And when we voluntarily give up that right to movement and give it over to anything, machines or laziness, we have truncated our happiness by a lot.

Dr. Murad: And the machine affects everybody—adults, teenagers, the elderly. Plus, it’s bad enough that we use our devices to interact with “reality,” but now we also have to deal with “deep fakes,” or device-mediated unreality.

Dr. Freed: Oh, yeah. It’s already happening. You and I are already captured in artificial intelligence. They can take exact images of our faces and put fake words into our mouths and make it appear real. Anyone and anything now can be manipulated to fit somebody else’s agenda because it’s very hard to authenticate unless you have experts to authenticate what’s a fake.

There are no guardrails at this point, but a lot of people, good people, are working on programs and software that can detect the fake. Unfortunately, it isn’t keeping up right now with people’s ability to create deep fakes.

Dr. Murad: It’s definitely a challenge—all of these are situations and stresses that we didn’t have in the past, and we have to find ways to deal with them. It’s easy enough to say, “Don’t sit so long. Go for a walk, turn off your phone,” etc., but there has to be some sort of a key that ultimately turns the door so you take action. Do you have any suggestions for the average person suffering from device dependency, or whatever you want to call it?

Dr. Freed: I call it a device addiction and it leads to lethargy and entropy. What I’ve found to be the most helpful is to gather with other people and do things that don’t involve devices. For example, every three days I swim with my partner and a friend in her pool. We just swim and talk for an hour. It’s the most delightful thing in my life. Going to a concert? Don’t bring your phone. I think people could have a lot richer experience if they chose to leave their phone behind. That’s really what we need to do: start weaning ourselves off of this obsession with the device.

Dr. Murad: In another article you wrote that “We don’t have a mental health crisis; we have a mental care crisis.” Can you elaborate on that?

Dr. Freed: I was a therapist for 40 years, and I’m still working with people as a coach. I’ve worked with the poorest of the poor and the richest of the rich, and what I’ve seen is that everybody suffers from despair, depression, and anxiety. That’s just part of living. But what’s missing is that people don’t have ways to get the love and care and compassion they need. Instead, we have this huge pharmaceutical industry dispensing drugs that mask or decrease symptoms, but they don’t address the critical need that every human has to belong, to be seen, to matter, and to feel useful. It’s always purported to be a mental health crisis because so many people have depression and anxiety. But nobody’s looking at, “Well, what’s missing?”

As you know, in the old days—ha-ha! We sound so old—I lived in a neighborhood where we knew our neighbors. I had a lot of time in nature; I had friends; I had organizations I belonged to. Today’s mental care crisis is not only because people cannot afford the mental health care that’s available (most people can’t), they also can’t find the time, given their life and their financial demands, to actually be part of thriving communities that care for them. So everyone’s in this isolated bubble feeling more anxious and depressed, and it’s called a mental health crisis. But really, we’re all lacking the real substantial connection to others that we need.

Dr. Murad: Absolutely! In that respect, I often talk about the healing power of touch. We don’t get very much of that, either. I say, if nothing else, make time to get a massage once every couple of weeks. Get your hair done. Get a manicure. Because the healing power of being touched is so powerful and we don’t prioritize it. We sit and complain about this and that, but if somebody just pats you on the shoulder and says, “Hello,” it makes a difference.

I know we’re afraid to touch people these days. You can’t just go up to somebody and touch them. But I’ve asked people, “Is it all right if I give you a hug?” If they say no, it’s fine. If they say yes, fine. But that ability to give each other reassuring physical contact is being missed a lot, along with all the myriad of other issues we’re talking about.

Dr. Freed: I couldn’t agree more with you. I think touch is the most underused facility of humankind right now. We’re mostly still an animal body, and animals know that they’re safe and loved through contact. We need skin-to-skin contact in order to feel more calm in our bodies. That’s how we co-regulate each other. If we touch each other, it’s signaling safety, comfort, security. And when I lack that comfort, safety, and security, I get more frightened.

Dr. Murad: Yes. In the old days, it used to be easier. Somehow over the last decade, it’s become not so safe to just go up to people and hug or pat or touch them. You have to be in a safe situation where people feel comfortable, such as salon or a spa.

Dr. Freed: Well, again, some people can afford that; some people can’t. But you can still join a free choral group, or a walking or running club, or volunteer at an animal rescue shelter. You can enjoy things that don’t require money and still involve being in the human body and expressing joy and affection. These are all ways that you don’t have to stress your income in order to feel more connected to your community. And connection to community has a huge payoff. To be with others doing something helpful is in itself mental wellness.

My partner and I started a nonprofit 25 years ago called AHA!, and at AHA!, there are three life-changing programs the teens can join for free. One is called Sing It Out, where they learn to sing with a rock and roll band over 12 weeks and perform at a big event. Second is the Digital Cleanse, where 27 teens and 13 adults spend five days doing creative activities and getting to know each other without devices. And finally, we have The Littlest Farm, which is where youth come to learn sustainable farming with adults. While they’re engaged in these programs, the teens all remark on the fact that they don’t miss their phones at all, ever. So it’s clear that the device is a poor substitution for what we really long for, which is meaningful connection.

Dr. Murad: That’s wonderful. I wonder if you’d just say that again because I think it’s so important that we all hear this message that you’re giving right now.

Dr. Freed: Sure. I believe, having witnessed this for years, that when human beings have a better option for a great meaningful experience, they’ll take it. So often, though, they don’t even know there is another option available. The device is a very poor substitution for true, meaningful connection. What we’ve seen at AHA! is that, when the youth are farming, when they’re singing, and when they’re creating, they don’t miss the phone at all. In fact, they become evangelists of, “Don’t use your phone so much,” because they see how much it’s taking from them, not adding to them.

Dr. Murad: Exactly. That’s wonderful. I think this conversation has been very helpful for anybody who’s interested in total health. It’s a unique work that you described, and I totally appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Dr. Freed: I so appreciate speaking with you and so grateful that you’re carrying this message and your vitality to all the people. It’s really an honor to speak with you.

Dr. Murad: Do you have any other recommendations for ways that we can harvest the benefits of technology but not be held hostage by it?

Dr. Freed: Yes. One of my favorite ways is to make up dances in our living room and share them with other people. I mean, we can use our body and use technology. We don’t have to be just sitting ducks in all of this. So when we use technology, use it to create instead of to consume. Dancing, music, collaborations, creative activities where we can gather and create instead of just being passive and sucking off the machine are all good.

Dr. Murad: It’s interesting. Most people don’t consider going dancing as healthcare. They think of going to a doctor and getting an injection as medical care. But what you’re suggesting is much better because it doesn’t even require you having a disease. It just requires you to get up and do something.

Dr. Freed: Here’s the bottom line: The creative part of our psyche is free. Nobody owns it. Only we do. We can write. We can sing. We can dance. We can play. We can act. We can tell stories. All of these things increase our vitality, and they’re all free, and we can do them with other people. What we’ve forgotten, because we’ve been so drugged and hypnotized by the machine, is that our greatest power is to use our imagination to create more beauty and more pleasure and more interaction on this planet. We can do this.

Dr. Murad: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time and your work! It’s been a pleasure talking with you